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kp: Hello Wayne, how are you today?

wd: I'm fine, Kathryn, how are you doing?

kp: I'm doing very well, thank you. Life in Las Vegas is exciting.

wd: Is that where you are now?

kp: Yes, I moved here last March and it's just been a wonderful adventure. Today I want to talk to you about the wonders of love and marriage for our Valentine's issue. To begin I want to ask you how your understanding and definition of love changed over the past 18 years you have been with Marcie?

wd: Okay, let me think about that. I think I've experienced a really radical shift. When I met Marcie I defined myself and my relationships on the basis of my own ego and my own accomplishments and what the relationship could do for me. How happy I would be with them would depend, pretty much, upon what was in it for me. Not totally, but much more so than it is today. Today I see a shift away from my own ego, away from what Marcie could do for me. Instead I see love as what I can do for her. And I see our relationship as much more of a mutual partnership than even a marriage. One in which the purpose of our being together is to assist each other in the fulfillment of our own purpose. Today love for me is the art of giving which asks nothing in return.

kp: What a wondrous change

wd: Oh, a complete turn around.

kp: Complete and much more satisfying than anything you had experienced before then, I'm sure.

wd: Yes, the ego is out of it. And when the ego is out of it, the Divine takes over, the sacred part of you takes over and you're free. You don't have to get any-thing back. You're no longer thinking about what's wrong or missing that's what freedom is. Freedom is the absolute lack of concern for yourself.

kp: That re-minds me of a line I love from one of Leo Bus-caglia's books: "It is only when we have experienced love that we can truly realize what would be lost by missing it." Wayne, how does Marcie bring out the best in you?

wd: I don't know that she brings out the best in me I mean, I don't really know what the best in me is. But I think I know what you are asking, Kathryn. I just don't think of myself as divided into best and worst or what's higher and lower.

kp: Okay, how does she compliment you?

wd: She brings out a lot of wonderful things. When I look at Marcie and just silently appreciate who she is and what she does, I'm always centered on what a giving person she is. How caring she is, how kind she is, and she does it all with very little fanfare. She serves as a daily reminder to me of how important it is to get outside myself and contribute, to give and share love with others. Marcie reminds me of that all the time. I probably don't tell her that often enough, but I always notice that about her. For example, if I feel like going to a movie, her first thought will be that there are five or six other people who have to be thought of first. You have to understand that she has the money, the life style to be able to have full time housekeepers, all the time, if she wanted to. Yet she doesn't. She takes care of the children herself. Marcie is always centered on others, almost to a fault because I think it keeps her from being able to make the great contribution that she has to make in her writing and her teaching and her heroic mission as well. I couldn't have this large family and all of these wonderful people in it, including Marcie, if I didn't have her in it. It just wouldn't work. So she reminds me of even my ability to get on an air-plane to go and give a talk to thousands of people is all made possible because she's always there. And even in the times I wasn't there, when I was strug-gling with stuff in my own life, she always held things together. She is really a tower of great strength help-ing me to be strong in that way as well.

kp: What would you say is the secret to your marital success?

wd: I think our marriage became successful mean we've always been in love with each other, but that doesn't always make for a successful marriage. There's a wonder-ful quote I heard somewhere that says, "if two people always agree on everything, then one of them is unnecessary."

kp: Laughter ... oh, that's great!

wd: I don't know where I heard that or if I did it myself, but we have learned to disagree without being disagreeable. We've learned to really suspend the need to be right and we substitute it with the desire to be kind. I think that's what makes our mar-riage work. I think most relationships would flourish if, just before you are about to react in anyway, you stop yourself and asked the question, "is what I am about to say or do for the purpose of making me right, that is, making the other person wrong, or am I going to be kind." Marcie and I now pick kind much more frequently than we pick being right.

kp: Well, that really answers my next question which is, when challenges arise, as they do in all relationships, do you have a formula for dealing with them?

wd: See, we're very, very different. We have different interests in almost every area and different ways of being. I'm much more loud and athletic and like to throw things around; I tumble with the kids. I'm noisy, I'm big, I'm strong, but Marcie is very peaceful, very quiet and just has a different view of lots and lots and lots of things.

kp: So your formula would be?

wd: To honor the difference. Where I have had problems in my relationships was interpreting a difference as a threat or as a rejection of what and who I am. That has been a flaw in my life. Now I've really learned that there's no rejection at all in being different. She's entitled to be who she is and what she is. I also think one of the things that works for us is that we have spaces in our togetherness. She has a place she can go and I have a place and it's okay that we can let a little space in there.

kp: And that's what Kibran said about 'letting the winds of heaven dance between you'. Wayne, there's a lot being written about twin flames. Is this a concept you believe in and do you feel Marcie is your twin flame?

wd: Well, I think that your twin flame is really the person that you can hardly stand sometimes.

kp: Laughter ... that's very true.

wd: I don't think your twin flame or soulmate is the person who always agrees with you or shares all the same interests with you. I think it's the person who can push your buttons in life. Whoever that person is who can say one thing that pushes your button and you go into a frenzy, that's your soulmate. They're teaching you in that moment that you have not mastered your-self. I think your soul-mate is somebody who reminds you con-stantly that you still have work to do on yourself. You don't really need some-body in there agreeing with and accepting every single thing that you say. This isn't to say that someone should always be dis-agreeable. I've always said you can really learn to live with anyone. If you throw two people into a cell, you could really learn to live with anyone. To me the definition of love isn't who you can learn to live with. The true definition of love is learning who you can't live without.

kp: Oh Wayne, you have such a way and that's perfect.

wd: Well, that's been my experience with Marcie. The reason I think I can't live without her is that I believe she is a teacher in my life. Over the years she has really taught me that I haven't mastered myself because I flip out over this and I get all pissed off and worked up over that. Slowly, over a period of time, because of what she has taught me, I'm really learning to be able to extend love. Marcie and I have done all the crazy things to stay out of each others lives, you know, all the different breakups and all of the stuff you go through over long, long periods of time. But we always are back in each others arms, lives and spirits because I believe we are there to teach each other how to master ourselves. That's why I can't live without her. It's certainly not because she agrees with me or likes everything that I say. She is the person in my life who's supportive even when times are tough. I always think of Marcie as the winds beneath my wings.

kp: Oh, that's so beautiful. Give me three keys to keeping the romance and passion alive in your marriage.

wd: First of all, I try to talk to Marcie everyday from wherever I am in the world. I'm gone a lot yet I take time, even if it's only a few minutes, to touch base and let her know I'm thinking of her. Silent touches also mean so much. We have a very, very busy home and a very busy life, but when I go to hold her hand, I'll squeeze it just a little bit to convey a little silent communication. A touch on the cheek, the brushing back of a hair, a sincere compliment say so much. These are not things I have to try to do. As you know, Kathryn, Marcie is as beautiful physically as she is inside. She is as physically beautiful today as the day I met her. She takes wonderful care of herself and every time that I look at her I'm turned on. She's always been the one person in my life who's been a constant turn on. I also like to bring her gifts just little gifts of appreciation, like an outfit or flowers, for no reason whatsoever. Just to say 'I love you'.

kp: I applaud you, Wayne. I think that is so thoughtful and kind. You mentioned all the traveling you do. Do you think this helps or hinders the relationship?

wd: Well, I think it's a little of each. It depends on how extended it is. Knowing I have a career and I have things I have to do keeps me vital. I feel that I'm fulfilling a destiny, but I also try to include Marcie in it as much as possible. One of the things we've been doing for years and years is that we commit ourselves to our summers. I don't work during the sum-mer, I'm privileged to be able to have that in my life, but I save money every month putting it away in a separate account so that we can spend our summers on the Islands. We've been doing that since we met. We go to Maui every summer. During that time I don't take phone calls, and I don't give very many talks. Only one or two at the most, usually on the Islands for a church group or some-thing and then we do that together. Summer is our time together, our family time.

kp: That's just perfect. What things do you do for just Wayne that enhances your relationship with Marcie? You know, away from the kids, away from your work, and separate from Marcie.

wd: My meditation is first and also my running. I run a lot every day, I run between 10-15 miles everyday.

kp: Wow, that's wonderful.

wd: Yeah, everyday, early in the morning and then in the afternoon. Sometimes I'll run again in the evening. We often go for walks the two of us but my running I do alone. People always want to run with me and I always say no, I run alone. It keeps me feeling physically good, it keeps me healthy. I don't get colds and things like that I don't even know how to be sick. I just don't go there in my life. I think having meditation time and run-ning time just makes me feel more vital.

kp: Wayne, how do the children help the marriage to evolve?

wd: They teach what unconditional love really is I think that's what children do. Having children in your life teaches the importance of letting go of your own demands, desires and needs in order to discover how much joy there truly is in giving and in serving. When you are able to do that with your children, it's like a divine exercise. It keeps you at peace.

kp: So the children help to keep your marriage centered?

wd: Yes, they keep it peaceful and loving. The children help me to take the focus off of myself. As a father, I've become identi-fied with serving. You see, the children help me to become less self-absorbed. In raising them I lose myself in the giving of unconditional love. For me. that's what Corinthians 13 is all about. That's the best definition of love I've ever seen.

kp: Oh, absolutely. Wayne, you and Marcie have written a new book together, A Promise Is a Promise, Tell me why you wanted to write this story and how did the experience impact your life?

wd: I wrote the story because I wanted to help this woman whose daughter has been in a coma for 27 years. I wanted to share her story because Kaye O'Bara has lived a life of unconditional love. I really believe she is a saint and is enormously in debt. By writing the book, I could do what I do best while helping her out of debt. So I've had all of the royalties and profits to go directly to her. I felt this also gave me an opportunity to put into prac-tice in my personal life what I've been writing about in my later books like, Your Sacred Self. By the way, Kathryn, I have a new book coming out in March called, Manifest Your Destiny.

kp: That's great, I look forward to reading it. Well, as a couple, are you and Marcie planning any future projects?

wd: Marcie still wants to have more children. She talks about it, and that would be wonderful if it happened. We've also talked about adopting a child, whether or not that will come about we're not sure. Marcie has been working on a book that will be very important. Of course, that doesn't involve me other than as a supporter. Beyond that, I never know what I'm going to do next. I have no idea what I'll be doing a year from now. I never even think that far ahead.

kp: Well, as a final question, Wayne, I'd like for you to describe for me your vision of the most perfect Valentines Day you could spend with Marcie ?

wd: I think back to the day that I rented a helicopter for just the two of us. We packed a lunch and flew all over west Maui. We flew through all the rain forests and then the helicopter took us over to Lanai, a small island. We were dropped off on a secluded beach and we had the whole afternoon on this beach, all alone. There wasn't another soul on the island. And we had a lovely picnic then walked the beach, swam, sunbathed and love made. We had the most wonderful afternoon and that day has remained one of the real highlights of my life. It was a magical day.

kp: Oh, how perfect.

wd: It was perfect it was really beautiful. The only thing is I got my rear-end really sunburned. It was as red as it possibly could be. My kids thought that was the greatest thing in the world it was so funny.

kp: (Laughter), oh this has been delightful, Wayne, and I'm so glad you took time out of your busy schedule to do this interview with me today.

wd: Oh, it's been my pleasure, Kathryn. Thank you! 

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