kp: Good morning, Marianne. I know you have a full day so let us get right to the interview. Marianne, I have read everything you’ve written and I could not put this book down. For those who have not read Enchanted Love, please define for us, enchanted love.

mw: The word enchanted contains within it the word "chant." Today, people are becoming more and more aware of the power of chanting to create discernible, observable changes in the world around us. In fact, even one of the theories about the building of the Great Pyramid is that the ancients knew the power of sound. And through chanting they were able to create an anti-gravitational force field. Within this field people were able to lift rocks otherwise too heavy to be lifted. In this same vein, those who have participated in firewalks also know that chanting is often used as a tool in this experience.

kp: Marianne, is there a difference between chanting and toning as you are using the term?

mw: Not necessarily…the whole idea here is the power of sound. I feel that just as there are physical sounds that can be used to help lift us above and supersede certain physical laws, I think similarly there is a field, an emotional, spiritual field which allows us to rise above and supersede emotional, psychological, and spiritual limitation which might hold us back. I think that the love between two people is such a field or at least it’s such a field of possibility.

kp: So, when we refer to chanting in regard to enchanted love it’s not that you feel lovers must actually chant together?

mw: (Laughter) Oh, God, no, no, no! I’m not saying that at all, Kathryn. I’m just using chanting as an example of the idea of enchantment. We now have begun to think of enchantment as a metaphor. Or perhaps as a magical phrase with no real material power. And I’m suggesting otherwise, that’s all.

kp: In all honesty, as you started with that visual line of thought I envisioned the powerful vibration which is indeed created when two people love at the magnitude of enchantment as define in your writings. This depth of love, I believe, does have a tone of its own, which invariably elevates the couple to a higher level of spiritual beingness.

mw: Absolutely, you’re right and that is why, for instance, when two people fall in love they feel drawn to certain music and call it, "our song". This proves there is an actual physical/musical vibration that always makes them think of each other. And isn’t that nice?

kp: That is! We could do an entire study just on that.

mw: Yes, we could. Too bad we didn’t think of it before the book was written! (Laughter).

kp: In your opinion, Marianne, what keeps so many of us from knowing or experiencing this deep level of love?

mw: We have a formula for love that is basically ego-created but the entire culture has conspired to promote it. It is a formula based on our perception of needs as we define them. It includes how people look, what they do for a living, how they act, how much money they have, etc. That is ultimately an unworkable formula if the goal is attainment of a higher love consciousness. However, until we convert our thinking to a spiritual basis we don’t think to apply any other formula. When we do convert our thinking to Spirit our goal for all things is that they serve us on our path to God. Moreover they deepen our capacity to serve and experience God in all ways.

kp: I agree, yet we are such sensory beings, Marianne. How will we ever get over thinking, ‘gee, I like the way that person looks, I’d like to get to know him’?

mw: You know, I don’t necessarily think we have to get beyond it. I just don’t think, for instance, that God’s perfect partner for you is someone whose looks you don’t like. But I do think when Spirit floods our minds, the experience of what we do indeed like is expanded. Let’s not buy into any kind of sacrifice mentality here such as, if I allow myself to love the one God wants me to love it will be someone who is unattractive…

kp: Unattractive, living in utter poverty or on the verge of deathÉ(laughter).

mw: Right, exactly…and that’s what keeps us away from surrender to God to begin with! We want to know that God is a good dating service, not a bad dating service, right?

kp: That is so true. Well, are there specific spiritual or emotional tools we can utilize to hasten the process of opening our hearts to receive the gift of enchanted love, Marianne?

mw: Yes, prayer. I believe it is the Catholics who say, "couples who pray together stay together." And I think they’re onto something there.

kp: I am glad you brought up the subject of prayer because I have a bit of a problem. My sweetheart and I were recently discussing the fact that I was preparing for this interview with you. During our discourse I pulled your book, Illuminata off the shelf and said to him, “In 1994 Marianne wrote this book and it is one of the best books ever written on the purpose and power of prayer. Yet the popular re-emergence of prayer’s true potency did not command mass public attention until a man, Dr. Larry Dossey, wrote of the power of prayer.” Then there is James Redfield’s very recent contribution to the subject with his spectacular variation of the theme in, The Secret of Shambhala. Well personally, Marianne, I take exception to this for in this I sense a bit of cultural chauvinism. Is there a glass ceiling firmly in place for women even amongst spiritual leaders? Is it possible that even today a woman cannot initiate this type of evolutionary thought?

mw: Oh, I do think that a woman can initiate it, but she will probably not be given the credit for it that a man will be given.

kp: How devastatingly frustrating must that be?

mw: Yes, but then what a wonderful challenge for you and me to proclaim what we know. I think that this is just one small but glorious example of why it is so important that as women we learn to celebrate one another.

kp: So well put. Marianne, while on the subject, do you think prayer belongs back in school?

mw: I think the school prayer issue is a complicated one. I feel both sides of the spectrum of this argument have very good points. For me personally, I ultimately conclude the violence in the schools, the chaos and disharmony in the schools is so great I would choose to have prayer put back into the schools because I do believe in the literal power of prayer to shield us from chaos and harmonize all energy. At the same time, I think we should not underestimate the seriousness of any threat to our religious traditions which might be posed by any teachers or even students who sought to use prayer in school as an opportunity to proselytize for one particular religious belief. Therefore, I think it would be very important for us to be absolutely adamant that there is no, for instance, “In the name of Jesus” to be used during school prayer. I think though there are ways we can work together and personally I think the Lord’s Prayer is a good example. That’s what we said when I was a child. There is no allusion in the Lord’s Prayer to a specific religious teaching.

kp: Sure, it’s simply a good broad spectrum, generic, yet, affirmative prayer.

mw: Exactly! For me personally, I would vote to put prayer back into the school system for the simple reason that our children are killing each other on campus.

kp: How sad that is, and of course, we could devote an entire interview to that subject alone. But for now I really want to get back to your wonderful book, Enchanted Love, because I have a couple of questions. First, could you have written this book ten years ago, Marianne? Were we ready for it, mature enough for it?

mw: Well, I think any book you write is by definition a product of what you know so far. But if I understand what you’re saying, and I believe I do, I think there is something about humility that relates to this picture. When you’re young, your attitude towards everything you get wrong is ‘next’! Then we get to a certain age and just how many ‘nexts’ are there? Also, as we get older, the consequences of our mistakes become more real, children are involved and the stakes become much higher on every level. So, that kind of humbling, by the Universe, takes you to your knees. In every area of life where you’ve felt enough pain, you begin to consider the role of God in this area more securely. Suddenly you realize maybe you’re not as smart as you thought you were.

kp: Tell me Marianne, do you agree with the idea of soulmates and twin flames?

mw: Yes, to an extent. I think that kind of thinking can, in fact, mislead us if we use it too much to focus on any two people alone. Intimate love is from a spiritual perspective…not exclusive but inclusive. Two people in love are joining together not to avoid the world but so that together they might serve it to an even greater extent. So, you find your twin flame in one person in order to more easily find the Universe, and ultimately all living beings.

kp: So, here it is definitely a matter of quality and not quantity when dealing with establishing a framework for success in relationships.

mw: But even that, Kathryn, should not be used as a glib rationalization for easily jumping ship in relationships. Perhaps we need to work harder at making relationships work. I think we should work harder at committing to life itself. However, sometimes the lesson in a relationship is discerning when to go and sometimes the lesson in a relationship is learning how to hang in there and really work at it. It’s extremely difficult to prescribe a convenient formula for anyone. We have to ask, deep within ourselves, for exactly what is right for us as well as what the lesson at hand truly is.

kp: Marianne, as a woman in love, the words in your book struck me as true. So my question for you is, did these words flow so beautifully and passionately from you for you, too, are a woman who has found great enjoyment in this kind of enchanted love?

mw: Well, I think I’m going to leave that to the imagination of the reader.

kp: Okay, fair enoughÉbut this reader thinks she has your number! (laughter) Marianne, I want to read you what I feel are some of the greatest quotes from your book and I’d love your feedback on them. On page 131 you write, and I quote, “A fascinating woman is high maintenance and she doesn’t apologize for the fact.”

mw: What do you think?

kp: I think that is fabulous, yet so many women today do apologize and I want you to explain to those women who haven’t read the book why it’s okay to be high maintenance.

mw: Okay. Being a high maintenance woman means that we have a lot to talk about. High maintenance means we’re interesting and you’d better not bore us. High maintenance means our feelings matter. High maintenance means we want to give a lot but we want to receive as well. High maintenance means we don’t want just a phone in relationship and we don’t want to be with somebody who does.

kp: Do you think things are becoming more equitable? I’m reflecting on how things were in the ‘80’s when people would comment that, those poor men just don’t know what to be anymore. If they’re too strong they’re called chauvinists, if they’re too sensitive, women don’t want them. Are things evening out now?

mw: I don’t know if my take on that is different from anybody else’s. I see that as part of a larger question, actually. It’s really just an individualized expression of ‘are things getting better or are they getting worse?’ My answer is…both!

kp: Why Marianne, are you thinking of going into politics?

mw: No! To me ultimately, these are political questions…the politics of how men and women see each other.

kp: You’re right. The politics of daily life determine the climate of everything else. Well, in the book you say, “God is the only partner we need. The human at our side is the partner we desire.” Once we understand, on a spiritual level, that God is the only true partner, how does life change for the couple in relationship?

mw: When you know that it is God on whom you can and should depend, then you no longer dysfunctionally depend on another human being. But, if you do not know God as your source, you will inevitably depend dysfunctionally on another human being. The idea here is the fundamental difference between need and desire, the difference between dependency and love. If you want to know which you are being, your partner can tell you. The healthiest person will not really want to connect with you if what they sense from you is dependency. The healthiest person with whom you can have a highest level, creative relationship will be much more attracted to your desire than your need.

kp: Amen to that! All right, here’s another quote I’d like you to expound upon. “When heart chatter replaces mind chatter, the power of love flows with full force.”

mw: We are trained to instinctively jump to the paranoid perception, the judgmental perception, the fear-based perception, the limited perception. Therefore, when the mind is undisciplined by spiritual practice that’s what we do. So as a consequence those painful thoughts lead to painful feelings. Conversely, when the mind is trained through spiritual practice to a more loving perspective, love can only heal you and heal your heart because you’re not buying into a victim-based interpretation of events. So, heart chatter, versus mind chatter, is the voice of love versus the voice of fear, the voice of peace versus the voice of pain. But that kind of interpretation of events runs so counter to the thinking of the world that we have to take personal responsibility for the conversion of our thinking. It simply will not happen naturally; it has to be fostered through sincere spiritual practice. It’s no different than going to the gym, Kathryn. You know, after a certain age, if you’re not working on keeping those muscles up, they’re headed down. That’s just the way it is…right?

kp: Absolutely! You make another statement I liked, “our true spiritual companions are those who help us find a spirit of love within ourselves.” Now, many spiritual people believe that our true spiritual teachers, to be effective, must irritate and/or challenge us into our own evolution. Yet, this quote from the book intimates the need for us to surround ourselves with others who would rejoice in our presenceÉ

mw: I think both are true. You and I can fall in love with someone who totally supports us and honors us. But if we’re not enlightened masters, which we’re not, then at the deepest level, even with those people who support and honor us, we’re going to do some rubbing up against each other. Do you know what I’m saying? Even the most healed of us still have unhealed places that are going to make themselves known in relationships.

kp: You write, “We are in relationships to experience aspects of ourselves that cannot be experienced when we are alone.” I so agree with this for I feel we all reach certain points in our spiritual evolvement where we have to meet up with someone else who will assist in taking us to the next level. Yet, there is a prevailing cultural thought to the contrary which suggests that in order to be truly whole we must believe we don’t need anyone else.

mw: I think the paradox of those two is the paradox of love. That’s why in the book I say, “Éokay, you’ve proven you can do it by yourself, but what was the strong point in 1985 may well be the weak point in 1999.” At one point in life what is strong is to gather your resources into yourself. Once you’ve gotten real good at that, the strong point is then to give it up and surrender.

kp: Marianne, as we all look forward to the healing of America, is there a candidate for president who you publicly support?

mw: You know, nothing comes out but no.

kp: Good enoughÉI’d like your feedback on this, just to see where you think we need to draw spiritual lines. I read recently where Barbara Streisand did an interview with TV Guide. In a discussion of the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky liaison, Barbara’s comment was, “In taking a story like his affair with Monica, who cares? What difference does it make what somebody does in their bedroom or in their office?” Shouldn’t we all care? Don’t we have the right to count on a certain standard of personal discretion and display of honorable behavior from those we elect into this country’s highest held office?

mw: Yes and no. I wouldn’t have put it the way Barbara put it but if we’re going to make an affair your primary standard we would have missed out on some really great presidents, that’s clear. It’s so easy to make sex a standard. There is public morality and there’s private morality. It’s easy to point at private morality, jump up and down, and have all kinds of opinions. It’s much more difficult to deal with public morality. Is it moral that there are so many hungry children in this country? Is it moral prisons are so big and filled to capacity in this country? Is it moral public education is substandard for so many in this country? In my opinion, there are much more difficult moral issues and questions for us to be addressing. It’s such an easy game to jump into turning the presidency into a "Beverly Hills 90120," just another cheap and easy sitcom. I think that diminishes the presidency, it actually diminishes the country more than his behavior did. Kathryn, I would not say that what the president did doesn’t matter, but I do believe the issue is whether or not it is an impeachable offense. And there is nothing in the constitution to indicate that it is.

kp: Women like yourself, Marianne, are changing the face of politics and the face of spirituality. Please tell me where do you see our spiritual consciousness heading in the next twenty-five years?

mw: I think we’ve arrived at a very profound moment. There is a critical mass, for not only in this country but around the world, where people are ready to take their spiritual conviction out into the world in whole new extraordinary ways through media, education, business as well as the arts. I think we have an opportunity to not only know certain things, but experience certain things making life a broader spiritual occurrence than never before.

kp: What do you see as the main thrust or focus of this?

mw: God’s love in it all.

kp: And the recognition and promotion of that love in our daily lives on every levelÉ

mw: Yes, to believe in each other. Just to go in the direction towards the celebration of one another. Which is also the direction of forgiveness of all those small-minded reactions to each other and to the world we’ve all been taught to participate in but that ultimately destroys the world.

kp: Marianne, I’m sure our concerns for the world are similar as we are both single parents. According to your experiences, please give me three steps to successful parenting.

mw: Oh, I don’t know, the jury’s not in — in my case. I don’t see myself as any expert but I am certainly trying. I think, number one, we have to let our children know all the time, no matter what, how much we love them. Number two, that we constantly give our children very positive feedback regarding how wonderful they are, who they are and what they can achieve in their lives. And number three, that we seek to teach them the powers of Spirit as we try to shield them from the unbelievable darkness that will bombard them through the media and other cultural channels if they are not so protected.

kp: How do we do that? How do we shield them? It is everywhere!

mw: I feel I am strict on this issue. I try to protect my daughter from television, and movies, and information I feel she’s too young to deal with. I can’t believe these parents who just let their small children sit down in front of CNN.

kp: I agree with you on this. With all six of my children, since they were little, I’ve attempted to monitor what they watch and are exposed to. But my youngest, my six year-old, Adriana, goes off to school and comes home with information that is shocking!

mw: I know. I sat down with the teacher just recently and told her that Emma comes home from school where you’re having taught her things I am working hard to protect her from knowing at this age. I don’t need my nine year-old to know about the electric chair in Florida. I don’t need my nine year-old to have been taught, when I travel so much, why it’s so rare that anyone can survive a plane crash. I don’t need my daughter to know how many people die in house fires in Detroit every year. The teacher replied that he understood my concerns but he felt I should know that most kids, by this age, just take all this in stride. I told him frankly that this is not good news! This is not good news that they are already this desensitized because what this says is not that these things aren’t painful but our children are already disassociated from their own pain. They have actually started, at this age, to shut down as a defense against it all. I am happy that my daughter still gets upset and still cries over these things. That tells me she’s still in touch with herself. So, this is another example of how you and I have a lot of work to do as mothers and as women. When the tragedy at Columbine occurred, some parents were rushing to explain it to their little children. I was rushing to cover her ears. She doesn’t need to know that yet, she just doesn’t need to know that yet!

kp: I couldn’t agree more yet there are those in my life who accuse me of wanting my children to live in a bubbleÉ

mw: Exactly, for as long as possible, thank you! You and I aren’t stupid, Kathryn, one day they’re going to be out there, but the longer they spend in the bubble the more empowered they will be when they’re outside of it. We need to be adamant about that. People say I can’t protect her forever, and they’re right, but I will protect her for as long as I can. Otherwise our children will only become imitators. They won’t become creators because their imaginal minds will have closed down.

kp: If there is one quality you possess that you would love to ensure that in Emma becomes perpetual, what would it be, Marianne?

mw: It would have to be the love between she and I, and how committed I am to our relationship.

kp: Great answerÉin this year what is the very best part of being Marianne Williamson?

mw: I’ve survived some things and I have a chance this year for some new beginnings. So, I feel a lot of hope.

kp: Are you happy being the spiritual leader at the Church of Today?

mw: Oh, the answer to that is, yes I am!

kp: What do you like most about that?

mw: There is a vortex. When this many people are together praying and studying spiritual material on a daily basis you know you are a part of something truly meaningful and substantial. It provides a powerful antidote to the chaos you feel.

kp: Of all the work you’ve done to date, is this the most gratifying?

mw: I wouldn’t say that. I mean I’ve done a lot of work in my life that has blessed me, but this is very gratifying work which fulfills me and for that I am very grateful.

kp: What dreams are left unfulfilled today? What mountain peaks still await your conquest?

mw: My most serious frontiers are now internal and the peaks I want to climb are concerned with my own inner and outer life. That’s where my main energies are focused. Amazingly, everything else takes care of itself when those things are together.

kp: Well, already we’ve arrived at my last question. Marianne, how do you want to be remembered by the world? PerhapsÉfor your sparkling personality, your quick wit, or maybe those great games? {Laughter}

mw: It’s already too late to be remembered as a woman who succeeded in everything she tried. But I would hope to be remembered as someone who did indeed try. For I did indeed try to expand my own vistas beyond the small and did what I could to do that for a few others as well.

kp: That is superb, Marianne. Is there anything we did not cover you would like to talk about?

mw: No, no I think you’ve got your art down, Babe!

kp: Why thank you, I do tryÉ

mw: Yes, really and with six kids, I admire you greatly. It was so nice talking to you. I wish you the best, Kathryn and I really hope we get to meet in person again.

kp: I look forward to that. Thank you so much for your lovely company today, Marianne. Do take care. ¤

    Home   |   Site Index   |   Search   |   Current Issue   |   Past Issues   |   Classifieds   |   Subscribe FREE    

Book  Store   |   Videos / Music   |   Posters / E-cards   |   Links   |   Advertising